The Hon Tanya Plibersek MP
Minister for Social Services

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SUNRISE
MONDAY, 8 DECEMBER 2025

TOPICS: MINISTERIAL TRAVEL; SOCIAL MEDIA BAN

NATALIE BARR: Let's bring in Social Services Minister Tanya Plibersek and Independent MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning. Tanya, when families are struggling with the cost of living, do you think that these expenses pass the pub test?

MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES, TANYA PLIBERSEK: Well, Anika Wells has got two really important jobs as Communications Minister and as Sports Minister. As Communications Minister, she went to New York to talk about our world leading social media ban for under 16s. And at the event that she attended, there were world leaders, communications ministers from other countries who were actually convinced to join Australia or at least take an interest in what Australia is doing. When we're up against the big tech giants, having that sort of, global support really helps us in what we're doing. And the reason we're doing this, of course, is because we've been contacted by so many parents who are worried about the impact that social media has had on their kids or is having on a whole generation of kids. So, I think being in New York was valuable, important. It helps Australia's interests and it helps us do what we want to do, which is stand up to the big tech giants and protect our kids.

BARR: So, you think that the $35,000 return airfare was worth it?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I think it was really important that the Communications Minister was there to talk about our world leading social media ban. I think it's - you know, she's made clear that the travel was booked at the last minute because there was another issue happening in Australia with the Triple Zero outages. I can't answer for how the airlines charge. They, you know, they do seem to charge like wounded bulls, but it was very important that the Minister was.

BARR: If that was your company, Tanya, and that ended up being the last-minute airfare, would you still say, "Look, let's stump up, it's still worth it."? But it's our money, so it's different, isn't it? If that was your money and your company, do you reckon you'd still stump up the cash.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I think taxpayers have a right to demand transparency and demand accountability from government. The reason we know these numbers is because they're all transparently reported, all within the guidelines. And, you know, I do understand what you're saying, Nat. It is important that taxpayers get good value for every dollar spent. But we are up against the biggest, some of the biggest wealthiest companies in the world. We're having a, you know, big fight with the global media giants about our social media ban. Having the person who's in charge of that there to make the case--

BARR: But the Prime Minister was there.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK:-- to get support from other nations is a really important thing to do. Yeah, it's really important, and he did a really good job too. But having the Prime Minister talk to world leaders and the Communications Minister available there to talk to other communications ministers and other ministers and dignitaries from around the world to help them back us in is really important. And what we've seen is other countries now coming to the table and saying because of what Australia is doing, we're thinking about this in our own context. The European Union, for example, is also talking about implementing something similar. Wouldn't that be great if we actually led a global movement to protect our children? Don't forget what this is all about. I know you support this, Nat. This is about letting kids have a little bit more time in the real world, to make real friendships, to be protected from online bullying, to grow up, to become more mature, so that they can handle some of the toxicity that's online a little bit better because they're a bit older. It's about protecting our kids from seeing really inappropriate material. We know the average age for first viewing pornography is thirteen--

BARR: We know the issue, Tanya

BARNABY JOYCE: We know all about it.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: --that's terrible.

BARR: But what about the ski trip and what about the Adelaide trip happened to coincide with the birthday party? And we don't mean it to be pylon to Anika Wells, because I'm sure if we investigated every MP, we'd find all sorts of stuff that they happened to book that coincided with Aunty Jan's birthday. It's more a broader issue. Do the people of Australia think it's fair that you guys all get three return business flights a year for your family members? It's putting the spotlight on MPs. I know it's within the rules, but do you think the rules need to change, Tanya?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, it's not a 9-to-5 job. There's so many weekends--

BARR: Most peoples are.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK:--there's so many weekends away from home. And if you're Sports Minister, a lot of those are very deliberately weekend events that you're required to attend because that's when people watch sport. That's when people play sport. She was in Thredbo to highlight the extra investment we're making in the Paralympics. We've doubled funding for the Paralympics having [inaudible]--

BARR: Okay, I’m having trouble hearing you because of the flight.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: -- that's an important investment.

BARR: Could be an MP. Barnaby, what do you think about this? Because, you know, you're an MP who's obviously been in Parliament for a long time. A lot of people wouldn't realise that all MPs get three return business flights a year for family members. Do you think the rules need to be changed or are you happy with this?

JOYCE: Well, I know I'm happy with the rules, but what happened then was Tanya didn't answer the questions that were asked of her. What was asked was, "What did Anika spend, was that reasonable?", and she went off to talk about social media laws and going to New York. And that was not the question that was asked. No one's got a problem with that. What people have a problem with is when you go to dinner and charge the taxpayer a $1,000 for dinner. And then follow it up with another invoice. Now, I listened to this. I thought, "This is really bad. This is really bad." But then I listened to Anika on the weekend and I changed my mind completely. This is a total train wreck at high speed off a high cliff. And it's the issue that there seems to be no sort of connection between money that she's spending in the job that she's doing. No one denies the job, and I don't even deny, you know, how she flies over, to be honest. But it's when you get there and start spending money on this dinner and that dinner and going to the snow and down to - it all adds up. And it's no longer a question for Anika, to be quite frank, everybody's made their mind up about that. We know exactly what the issue is. She is wrong, okay. She's done the wrong thing. It's a question for the Prime Minister whether he says, "I agree with her doing the wrong thing." So, it's really over to him. Because when you try, you know, make excuses for them, as we just heard with Tanya trying to do just then, it just throws even bigger light on it and people just - that no one - you don't convince anybody. You just annoy people because they hear you answering a question and they say, "I want you to know." I looked at one invoice, it was like 500 euros for dinner.

BARR: $1750--

BARNABY JOYCE: On the same night, there was another €400 for another thing. In one night. What on earth was going on there.

BARR: So, $1750 for a dinner with the staffer in Paris.

JOYCE: Incredible. No world leaders, Nat, were at that. That was just staff and an embassy staff. So, 1,700 bucks for a night on the tiles does not pass the pub test.

BARR: Tanya?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I don't know the details of the dinner or who was there.

BARR: Nor do we, but it sounds bad.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, it has been, it has been reported transparently. I can't give you any more information that's in the public domain. I think it is important that we spend every dollar carefully. But not even the newspapers are suggesting that the Minister's done anything outside the guidelines or done anything wrong here.

BARR: The guidelines. Okay, it's the guidelines and Barnaby, you're saying you support them too, but, like, you know, you've probably been spending within the guidelines too. Do we need to look at the guidelines here? Anybody?

JOYCE: I just think you need to be more diligent and more of a sort of an internal compass about what you're doing. Going back to that for your listeners, if I said to any of your listeners, if I gave you your boss's credit card and you went out and spent 1,700 bucks in one night on dinner and drinks--

BARR: Yeah, I can tell you.

JOYCE: --do you reckon you'll have a job on Monday?

BARR: No. None of us. We have to put every single $20 Uber through a system like everyone else in Australia does, and no one's getting $1,700 passed. So, maybe the rules need to be changed and the business class flights - everyone works away from home. I mean, it just doesn't feel right, guys.

JOYCE: Well, to be quite frank - no, I don't, because I'm here. We just fly economy, right. I've got no real problems with a senior person going over, if you fly over an economy, you can't land and get to work, right.

BARR: Yeah.

JOYCE: So, there you go. But I'm not saying - but where my big issue is, you've got to have an internal compass and say, "Look, you can't spend 1,700 bucks." I might be allowed to do it. But you just can't do it.

BARR: Exactly.

JOYCE: Because someone's going to ask a question and it's just not right. It's not moral.

BARR: And if you look and say, I've been delayed and the air fare is 35 grand, maybe you just don't go, like the PM is there - I don't know. It's everyone around Australia. I'd like to get people's opinions here on this today. It's within the rules, but is it - does it pass the pub test? Is it kosher? Thanks very much. We'll see you next week.