THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
SUNRISE
MONDAY, 28 JULY 2025

Topics: China-Taiwan relations; Exercise Talisman Sabre; Social Media ban.

NATALIE BARR: Well, Taiwan is pushing to be involved in our biggest military exercises, such as the Talisman Sabre operation, amid growing fears of an invasion by China. Taiwan's Government says taking part in joint military drills with us and our allies would be, quote, “valuable”, although wouldn't completely deter China from invading. Australia's sophisticated Talisman Sabre war fighting exercises currently involve 35,000 personnel from 19 different nations. For their take, let's bring in Social Services Minister Tanya Plibersek and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to both of you. Tanya, would Australia consider including Taiwan in the Talisman Sabre exercises?

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Well, Australia really values our unofficial relationship with Taiwan. We've got a lot of exchange on trade and investment, and on regional security and stability. We think the best way to maintain security and stability in the region is for no unilateral changes to the status of relations between China and Taiwan. And we're not currently considering involvement of Taiwan in exercise Talisman Sabre. I mean, it's a very important thing for Australia's defence. We've got a lot of countries, about 19 nations involved at the moment in the north of Australia with about 40,000 personnel. But that exercise is really focused on making sure that we are operationally fit.

BARR: Geez, it shows you how worried they are, doesn't it? They're sort of knocking on the door saying, we want what you're having.

BARNABY JOYCE: For me, look-

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I think the best way to make sure that we've got peace and security is to make sure that the status quo remains as it is.

BARR: Okay, so that's a no. Barnaby, should they be allowed in Taiwan to, you know, take part in these exercises?

JOYCE: I think what Tanya said then was pretty discerning and correct. I think you have to be, you have to understand the strategic ambiguity is to be backed up with incredible strength. A Talisman Sabre with 35,000 troops from 19 nations. I think they have one thing in common and that's what Emmanuel Macron said. There's not multiple rules-based orders in the world. There's one. And if a country wants to step outside that by just taking over the South China Sea, by what we've seen with journalists in Hong Kong just taken off the street, with tennis players who just disappear if they say the wrong thing, with a massive build-up of their armed capacity, including their nuclear capacity, and no real explanation as to why. Minister Wong has brought that to our attention lately, that Australia has got to, I mean, I think the military side has and strategic people have, but the Australian people really haven't grasped exactly what's before us. And we need to become as strong as possible as quickly as possible. Where you really are putting the future of your children and grandchildren at threat, because China does not believe in a democratic world order. They believe in an alternate order that does not include democracy. And ultimately, you know, where we rely on that if we don't get this right is as a vassal state. You will be dominated both economically, socially, in your media by a totalitarian regime. And we are not as strong as we should be at the moment. We are miles away from where we should be at the moment and we do need to work with these other countries. But I think you could be courting danger if you bring in Taiwan. But you have to look like you're strong enough if required. If your decision was ever made and you hope like God it never has to be without even declaring you'd make the decision. But you have to look like you're strong enough to back yourself in.

BARR: Okay, let's move on to something else. The Prime Minister says a decision to include YouTube in this under 16 social media ban will be made independent of any threats by the platform's parent company, Google, who warned our Government that it was considering its legal position and a potential High Court challenge. The eSafety Commissioner has recommended YouTube be added to the banned list, finding that four in 10 young Aussie kids have been harmed when engaging with the website. Tanya, are you prepared to take this fight up to Google and include it in the ban?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, we'll do whatever we have to make sure that Australian kids are kept safe. Like most parents, I struggle to get the kids faces out of their devices sometimes. It's frustrating for parents, but we know beyond just that conflict in family homes for a lot of kids, they're really genuinely harmed by what they're being exposed to on social media. And, we need to make sure that as a Government we back in parents’ efforts to protect their kids from some of the harmful stuff that's online. We're not going to be bullied out of taking action by any social media giant. We'll do what's in the best interests of Australian kids.

BARR: Yeah, the Government's talking tough like you've just said. The Prime Minister has said something similar. But if Google and YouTube dig in and say we're going to take this to the High Court, we don't think we should be included in the ban. Barnaby, what do you think our Government can do?

JOYCE: Well, I'm a bit of discordant voice with a lot of my colleagues because I do support greater controls on social media because of exactly what Tanya said, the damage that can be done, especially to young girls and eating disorders, that really does happen. And it really concerns so many parents. And, you know, the fact that you get bullying online. I think that though Google could easily come forward and say they have the capacity to control that noxious stuff. They have AI. They're incredibly capable. The question you have to ask is, why do they allow such content to go on their platforms? It's not the content that's not informative, that's just completely toxic, completely dangerous. Such things, you know, as competitions to how skinny you can be and people just saying outrageous things to one another. Why do they allow it to happen? Because they don't- they still allow it to happen. You have to sit back and say, you're not the model person, model commercial person in this. And therefore, we have to try and control it somewhat.

BARR: Yeah. And look, a lot of parents are nodding their heads, except it sounds like there's a fight brewing if they're already threatening to go to the High Court over it. Stay tuned for this one. Finally, a new video has emerged of Donald Trump in Scotland playing golf, where a caddy. Look at this. Appears to drop the ball in front of the US President, who gets out of his cart, out of his little buggy there and prepares to swing before the video cuts off. Tanya, tell us your reaction to the president appearing to, dare we say, maybe, possibly cheat at golf.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I'm not going to comment on the President's hobbies. That's a matter for him. People make their own minds up.

BARR: That was very diplomatic, I must say. Barnaby, would you care to dig into this one?

JOYCE: I think it's a job for Kevin Rudd. So, it looks awfully suspicious, doesn't it? But I think he owns the golf course, so maybe that gives him a bit of latitude.

BARR: You can do what you want. Look, if you're a golfer, you know, you can take a drop if the ball lands in a hazard on a leaf or something. So, maybe that's what happened.

JOYCE: That look more like a toss from the caddy, not a drop from the wire.

BARR: Okay, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. Talk to you next week.

ENDS