THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
SUNRISE
MONDAY, 16 JUNE 2025
TOPICS: DEFENCE SPENDING; AUKUS; MEETING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.
NATALIE BARR: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is right now preparing for a face to face meeting with Donald Trump on the sidelines at the G7 with a number of different issues believed to be on the agenda. The pair are expected to discuss Australia's defence spending, tariffs and the future of the AUKUS partnership. All of this while the world remains on edge, with that violent conflict between Israel and Iran worsening by the minute. For their take, let's bring in Social Services Minister Tanya Plibersek and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to both of you. Tanya, so, the US wants us to increase our defence spending. The PM says it is fine where it is. We're going up a bit, but not as much as the US wants. When they come face to face, will this cut it with Donald Trump?
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Well, I know the Prime Minister is looking forward to the first face to face meeting with the President since the election. They've had three very successful phone calls. But of course a face to face meeting is something to look forward to. Of course they'll be discussing defence, including AUKUS and tariffs as well. We're already increasing our defence spending. We're increasing our defence spending by $10.6 billion over the next four years alone and around $60 billion over the next decade. But the way we decide what we spend on defence is work out what we need to defend our country and then spend that much money. We don't pick a number out of the air and then work out what we can buy with it. We are absolutely determined to make sure that we have the personnel and the equipment we need to defend our nation. And that's why we're already increasing defence spending.
BARR: Yep, we are, but nowhere near what the US wants us to increase it by, are we? Barnaby, Donald Trump is a very tough negotiator. How do you see this playing out?
BARNABY JOYCE: Well, we don't have the personnel, we don't have the platforms. We have fallen dramatically behind where we should be on defence. We have the most precarious world and even the Labor Party says that since, basically since the Second World War, you can see it in live action on your TV at night. And three phone calls don't cut it. So, let's see how this meeting goes. President Trump or the Trump administration have said AUKUS is on the table. We have a KPI and that's what England has got. And let's see how the Labor Party matches up to what England is doing. That's a Labor government, they're increasing defence spending. When you say well we're going to spend this money over the next decade, I've never seen a forward estimates yet that's right over four years let alone ten. So, we can just dispense with that. And how you judge the Labor Party is what new platforms have they put on the ground in the time they've been in government or what even contracts have they signed for platforms to put on the ground if they've been in government? And the answer is minimal. Nothing. Defence people leaving-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You were defending our country with press releases, Barnaby. You made plenty of press releases in government. Didn't actually get anything done. First, there was a contract with Japan, there was a contract with France for submarines.
JOYCE: You've got to give up blaming the government from two terms ago. You've got to realise you're responsible.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Except defence investment is a long term proposition and if you hadn't chopped and changed with different proposals –
JOYCE: The dog ate your homework.
BARR: Barnaby mentioned AUKUS. Let's talk about AUKUS because that will be on the table too. This is up in the air. Malcolm Turnbull has been doing the rounds. He's pointing out that in the legislation of the AUKUS deal the US will not give us any submarines if it leaves America vulnerable. If they haven't got enough for their own navy. According to Turnbull, right now they're not making enough subs for themselves. They're making about half as many as they need. Tanya, could we end up with no subs?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, that's why we're working very hard to increase our industrial capacity here in Australia. In the UK they're working hard to lift their industrial capacity and of course that's what they're doing in the US. All three countries are cooperating together to lift our industrial capacity. And AUKUS of course is about the submarines. It's a very key part of the deal. It's also about a whole lot of other defence sharing opportunities, intelligence and equipment sharing opportunities. We're focused on the whole of that.
BARR: Yeah, we're focused on it. We've also paid a down payment of I think $500 million. And it sounds like the US has got a get out of jail clause that Trump may enforce. Is that right?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I'm not going to speculate about this sort of thing. The Prime Minister is having a meeting with the President this week and no doubt AUKUS will be one of the topics discussed, as will the trade deal that we're seeking with the United States, as will the uncertainty that you've alluded to in the world. The United States is facing a whole lot of domestic challenges as well so, there's a lot to discuss at the meeting.
BARR: It sounds like it. Barnaby, could we end up with no subs because of the way Morrison signed this subs deal with the US?
JOYCE: Well, we should have a contingency plan. Absolutely. We absolutely should have a contingency plan.
BARR: So, that's a yes.
JOYCE: But I haven't, I haven't heard. I haven't heard of any contingency plan. And you know to say that that clause is there. We've known about that and so that. So, there has to be. And I'm surprised that Tanya doesn't. So, you have to have a contingency plan. Now let's go to the industrialisation of what England's doing. England's announced a massive increase in their nuclear energy capacity, their baseload capacity. We are stuck with intermittent power. You cannot get an industrial, you're not going to industrialise anything in Australia with the, with the power grid we're on and you know this is-
BARR: Can someone tell me what happens to the $500 million-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So more energy in the 2030s is your solution Barnaby.
BARR: -we've put down to the US if they say we don't want to give you the subs? Anybody?
JOYCE: You should have a contingency plan. Like when as soon as the United States went out and said we're reviewing AUKUS, alarm bells should have rung everywhere. Everywhere. Because you said hang on, we're not going to be able to defend ourselves.
BARR: Yeah. And what if we don't get the subs? Do we get the money back? Do we get the down payment back? Do we get the deposit back, Tanya? If Trump says no, I'm going to enforce this clause. No subs for you.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, Barnaby's all over the agreement because his government signed it, of course. We're working very closely with the United States on the AUKUS agreement. The Prime Minister's talking to the President this week. I'm not going to speculate about what happens if this goes wrong. We are absolutely determined to make sure that it goes right.
BARR: Okay. Okay. Well let's all cross our fingers, and we'll see what-
JOYCE: Let's all cross our fingers. Let's all cross our fingers for the defence of our nation. Good luck.
BARR: I guess.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: It's a bit rich from someone who is part of a government that defended our country with press releases.
BARR: Well, she’s right Barnaby, you guys signed it.
JOYCE: Stop relinquishing your responsibility or say you want to be the opposition, and you should be across this.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: We could be 10 years into this if you’d taken action when you should’ve.
BARR: I think we're all lumped with it as a country. OK, well, I guess we'll just see what Albo and Trump come up with. Thanks very much. Fascinating, isn't it? Everyone at home. I did not know that. Thank you.
ENDS
